[Arthurrs]

I'm wondering if looking through realoem you can find the parts for your vehicle that would allow you to retrofit the HK tweeter grille to fit in front of the side mirror "triangle"? No drilling necessary. You can easily hide the crossover in the door panel wiring.

[Billfitz]

Friendly advice to newbies, before making a reply read the entire thread, lest you get one of these:

[esaru]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

When doing tuning sessions or coding you should either have the engine running or be using a battery charger. The only job the battery should be doing is starting the car. Aliexpress speakers may be OK, but there's no way of knowing. Those with BMW labels are fake, the real thing is made in Europe. If you pay attention you'll see many speakers there appear identical to some third party speakers, other than the logo. That's because they are.

I shall ponder the choice of speakers. Thanks!

I spent some time with match up dsp pc-tool. I used audiofrog target curved and eq’d with the “TuneEq” functionality, which is supposed to automate the process of correcting eq to a given target curve.

The result is pretty good, a definite improvement. But I still feel some lack of depth in the lower range. I suppose this is where I make additional adjustments of eq (and/or gains?) by ear?

I like it loud with ample bass. I am worried though - how can I make sure that I don’t exceed safe values for my speakers?

How does this relate to the RMS of the speakers and the amps rated output? F.e the earthquakes are rated 150w, amp outputs 90w. Does this mean it is entirely safe to play with eq/gain? I’d suppose there is more to it than the power ratings?

[Billfitz]

The power rating of subs is thermal, their limits are usually mechanical. In addition the rated output of amps isn't a brick wall figure, they can deliver four times or more their rated output in short bursts, enough to exceed both the thermal and mechanical limit of drivers. Tread lightly with EQ, as even a modest 6dB bass boost increases amp output by a factor of four. Without having a limiter, which is SOP in pro-audio but unavailable for auto sound, the best advise is if you hear distortion turn it down.

[esaru]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

The power rating of subs is thermal, their limits are usually mechanical. In addition the rated output of amps isn't a brick wall figure, they can deliver four times or more their rated output in short bursts, enough to exceed both the thermal and mechanical limit of drivers. Tread lightly with EQ, as even a modest 6dB bass boost increases amp output by a factor of four. Without having a limiter, which is SOP in pro-audio but unavailable for auto sound, the best advise is if you hear distortion turn it down.

Great explanation!

So in practice it would be a (somewhat, under the circumstances) adequate safety measure to habitually go through affected ouputs one by one after increasing EQ, cranking the volume up and listening for obvious distortion and dialing back down if needed?

If I decide to add a trunk woofer, would these under seat woofers be a better overall choice than the earthquakes? I am assuming they are quite poor, but I can’t make sense of the data myself. I just read that the earthquakes might not be best in class if a real sub is present, and I just happen to have a pair of these on hand so figured I’d ask.

[Billfitz]

If you want huge bass then a trunk sub will outperform any underseat woofers, simply because you can use a larger driver in a larger enclosure; the main obstacle to the underseats going very low or loud is the enclosure size. If your intent is to go with a trunk sub and use the under seats as midbasses that's OK, and you would not want Earthquakes as they don't work well as midbasses, but I wouldn't recommend the one you posted. It's no better than the OEM hi-fi. But since you have them there's no reason not to make use of them. You'd have to high pass them at 60 to 80Hz, then cross them over to the door midranges at 125 to 150Hz.

[NealfromNZ]

Arthurrs and I are itching for you to try the new Match subwoofer amp so you can report back 😀. 1k watt into 1 ohm. 600 into 2ohm.

If you like loud maybe something like a Stereo Integrity SQL sub in a custom box. The 10 inch only needs a modest size box for sealed and they have a passive radiator option for a bit more output. A dual 2 ohm version wired in parallel will produce a 1 ohm load.

https://stereointegrity.com/product/sql-10-series-2/

Ditch the Earthquakes, run the sub to 60 - 80 hz and have the underseat running a bit higher for a louder mid to upper bass. Don’t over tax the door mid basses to keep up by running them too low. There is a tradeoff though . Raising the door speaker crossover point does pull the front image down a bit. But conversely the door mids are typically 2-3mm of travel ( expect Daytons with do 4mm ) so you don’t want the cones maxed out when playing fav track loud

Although Sub amp wise anything 300 rms and you’ll be fine though.

On the other woofer you have model it with the 90 / 180 watts and see what frequency it hits 4mm at. That will determine how far it can be pushed.

Put those parameters you’ve posted into the crossover tab. The xmax line should be the safe point before driver starts getting into its mechanical limits.

Grab this handy spreadsheet.

https://www.diymobileaudio.com/threa...56458/#replies

[Billfitz]

Originally Posted by NealfromNZ

On the other woofer you have model it with the 90 / 180 watts and see what frequency it hits 4mm at.

100 Hz. But I don't see putting more than 50w into them with a sub handling the lows.

[esaru]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

If you want huge bass then a trunk sub will outperform any underseat woofers, simply because you can use a larger driver in a larger enclosure; the main obstacle to the underseats going very low or loud is the enclosure size. If your intent is to go with a trunk sub and use the under seats as midbasses that's OK, and you would not want Earthquakes as they don't work well as midbasses, but I wouldn't recommend the one you posted. It's no better than the OEM hi-fi. But since you have them there's no reason not to make use of them. You'd have to high pass them at 60 to 80Hz, then cross them over to the door midranges at 125 to 150Hz.

Originally Posted by NealfromNZ

Arthurrs and I are itching for you to try the new Match subwoofer amp so you can report back 😀. 1k watt into 1 ohm. 600 into 2ohm.

If you like loud maybe something like a Stereo Integrity SQL sub in a custom box. The 10 inch only needs a modest size box for sealed and they have a passive radiator option for a bit more output. A dual 2 ohm version wired in parallel will produce a 1 ohm load.

https://stereointegrity.com/product/sql-10-series-2/

Ditch the Earthquakes, run the sub to 60 - 80 hz and have the underseat running a bit higher for a louder mid to upper bass. Don’t over tax the door mid basses to keep up by running them too low. There is a tradeoff though . Raising the door speaker crossover point does pull the front image down a bit. But conversely the door mids are typically 2-3mm of travel ( expect Daytons with do 4mm ) so you don’t want the cones maxed out when playing fav track loud

Although Sub amp wise anything 300 rms and you’ll be fine though.

On the other woofer you have model it with the 90 / 180 watts and see what frequency it hits 4mm at. That will determine how far it can be pushed.

Put those parameters you’ve posted into the crossover tab. The xmax line should be the safe point before driver starts getting into its mechanical limits.

Grab this handy [...]

You guys are awesome, pillars of the community.

Im gonna redo the tuning process before changing any hardware. Read CATBUG like 5 times and will give this method a try, seems more thorough than only using the dsp built in stuff.

Have a question about the Tuning companion excel file though.

It allows 2-way or 3-way setups. Since I do not yet have a trunk sub and my mids/tweeters are not fully active I guess I have to make some modifications.

- Is the way I did it in the attached pic correct? Just zeroed the sub and letting my mid+tweeter combo be just tweeter in the excel file. (The crossover frequency values are just examples, will adjust after measuring)

- Also, should I apply the subsonic filter for the Earthquakes at this stage? Or just set subsonic to 0 and add low pass filter in dsp after completing tuning?

- Is LW 24db a valid choice for bandpassing the earthquakes?

- What’s your preferred target curve?

Any general recommendations are welcome as well.

[Billfitz]

That curve is as good as any. The readout looks screwy. It has the midbass showing what should be the underseats and the tweeter what should be the midbass in a 3 way system.

Since you already have the Earthquakes you should finish the project using them before deciding on the need for a sub. IMO they go as loud and low as any sane person has a real need for, but when it comes to audio insanity isn't all that rare.

[esaru]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

That curve is as good as any. The readout looks screwy. It has the midbass showing what should be the underseats and the tweeter what should be the midbass in a 3 way system.

Since you already have the Earthquakes you should finish the project using them before deciding on the need for a sub. IMO they go as loud and low as any sane person has a real need for, but when it comes to audio insanity isn't all that rare.

Thats exactly right. Because I screwed with the readout!

The provided 2-way config (see pic) does not work with my setup, because I have tweeters on the same channel as in door mid woofers rather than a fully active system as the excel file expects. Or if I’m misunderstanding, how should I set it up?



Will indeed finish the setup with the earthquakes, I am hopeful that current hardware will prove more than adequate with better tuning.

Bit the bullet and got the tweeter covers from the stealership today. Removed the temporary coaxials and installed the match up kit w separate tweeter and proper crossover. Huge difference!

[NealfromNZ]

Well done , that looks great and more importantly gets the wife acceptance tick. ( happy wife , happy life 😀 )

On the spreadsheet do either

Sub 20 150 ( export into high powered match channels running earthquakes )
Mid 150 20000 ( export to channels running door components)
Tweeter 20000 22000 ( don’t use )

Or Sub 0 0 ( don’t use )
Mid 20 150 ( export into high powered match channels running earthquakes )
Tweeter 150 ( export to channels running door components)

They should give the right shape export curves into DSP. With the earthquakes you can experiment with the HPF in increments between 20 & 30 hz and LPF of 125 - 150 hz as Bill mentioned . It should keep the sound stage sitting up nicely and give good low end extension.

With the bass curves the vehicle will help fill in the lower frequency through cabin gain / transfer function but may dip in other frequencies. No doubt you’ve started to see / hear this effect.

[Billfitz]

Originally Posted by esaru

The provided 2-way config (see pic) does not work with my setup, because I have tweeters on the same channel as in door mid woofers rather than a fully active system

Having the mids and tweeters on the same channel, using at the very least a blocking capacitor on the tweeters and preferably a full crossover between the mids and tweeters is the normal arrangement. Why whatever you used can't account for that I can't say.

[NealfromNZ]

This one is more around how to get the target curves for each of the amp channels into the Match DSP

Do the spreadsheet like this, Then hit export for sub and midbass

Sub export to be used on EQ SWS channels
Midbass export to be done on channels running door mids and tweeters with passive tweeters.

Pic of how to input into spreadsheet note , I used 30,000hz to keep the correct target shape for the ATF curve in the upper treble. The export will end at 20,000 hz so no issues.

Second pic will be the filenames to load into the DSP to get the house curves

[esaru]

Originally Posted by NealfromNZ

This one is more around how to get the target curves for each of the amp channels into the Match DSP

Do the spreadsheet like this, Then hit export for sub and midbass

Sub export to be used on EQ SWS channels
Midbass export to be done on channels running door mids and tweeters with passive tweeters.

Pic of how to input into spreadsheet note , I used 30,000hz to keep the correct target shape for the ATF curve in the upper treble. The export will end at 20,000 hz so no issues.

Second pic will be the filenames to load into the DSP to get the house curves

Cheers!

Should I perform the tuning in REW or the audiotec Fischer software? REW seems like the universal go to but the match up software seems good as well, with the automatic parametric eq they just updated their RTA with (TuneEq).

[NealfromNZ]

If your up for learning I’d use REW personally. In the last 6 months or so REW to Fisher DSPs integration has happened

So you can put the house curve into REW and do your RTAs within REW via the 3.5mm Aux input into idrive.

Then in REW you can go into the equaliser tab and it will make filters to correct RTA to target curve.

When the filters are exported from Rew you can input directly into the Match amp channel with the speaker that you’ve just RTAd.

Great feature between the two products.

As you get through a few RTAs sometimes you chase dips and peaks in the response with adding filters and these don’t always help. Some nulls can’t be worked around you will find. Dips you don’t notice so much.

[NealfromNZ]

Have a look at the 40:10 minute mark on this video. This will be how you’d import from REW

https://youtu.be/4lHGACo76pY?si=smJOk2hJz1ujK2Sl

[Billfitz]

The curve is a bit too aggressive in the lows. While the Earthquake will take 150w all the way down without exceeding xmax trying to get that 4dB at 20Hz is going to require a lot of EQ boost, which could stress both the amp and driver. I'd see what happens putting the subsonic filter at 30 and 35Hz.

[esaru]

Originally Posted by NealfromNZ

If your up for learning I’d use REW personally. In the last 6 months or so REW to Fisher DSPs integration has happened

So you can put the house curve into REW and do your RTAs within REW via the 3.5mm Aux input into idrive.

Then in REW you can go into the equaliser tab and it will make filters to correct RTA to target curve.

When the filters are exported from Rew you can input directly into the Match amp channel with the speaker that you’ve just RTAd.

Great feature between the two products.

As you get through a few RTAs sometimes you chase dips and peaks in the response with adding filters and these don’t always help. Some nulls can’t be worked around you will find. Dips you don’t notice so much.

Jumped right in the REW madness. Followed the CAT-BUG guide but I think I got lost along the way, see attached pic..

My process had several questionable aspects. In retrospect I think it was incorrect to set EQ manufacturer and model to Audiotech Fischer and 30 bands full EQ rather than just generic + generic.

I also had a hard time with the crossover matching. The guide I followed has you experimenting with all thinkable electrical crossover settings in order to reach the desired acoustic crossover, in my case LW 24db across the board. I think I severely botched this part of the process, it just seemed like something you do by instinct acquired through experience and general knowledge, none of which I possess.

In frustration I tried the amps TuneEQ-functionality. The end result was better than REW(?), but for some reason it packs zero punch in mid/low. Sounds okay after heavily reducing gains on the in door speakers and increasing under seat woofers, but I feel there is some fundamental flaw that needs to be resolved. Pic shows sum of under seats and front speakers.

Feeling a tiny bit overwhelmed and impatient at the moment, but I will keep on digesting available resources and hopefully I will have learned enough to have a decent sounding system by the end of this year.

[Billfitz]

Electrical and acoustic crossovers are only slightly related; even the name 'acoustic crossover' is a misnomer. Low frequency drivers have a natural acoustic response roll off above a certain frequency, the upper F3, while high frequency drivers have a natural acoustic response roll off below a certain frequency, the F3. Both contribute to the overall response, but in and of themselves don't matter that much other than you don't want to use a low frequency driver higher than the upper F3, nor a high frequency driver lower than the F3. For that matter they're seldom used even close to those frequencies.

What I see in your chart is too little from 50-100 Hz, too much from 100-250 Hz. If you're able to change the chart resolution/smoothing to 1/6 octave. That's all you can hear, so there's no point trying to make slight corrections that don't show up at 1/6 octave.